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#31 E. Randy Dupre

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 07:16 PM

That'd be same output, bowser. Same input presumably means the same controller. It's a tool-assisted run, though, which could mean anything up to and including having the games running at one frame every, say, five seconds, making it a significantly less clever feat than it looks at first glance. Although there's still a fair amount of skill involved in keeping track of where he is in each game at each moment.

Out of interest, have you ever played Manic Miner? Old home computer platofrmers like that were the ones that defined the term 'pixel perfect' and they meant it - you had to look really close at the monitor/tv when moving your character sprite to the edge of a platform, to make sure that it was lined up just right for the jump. Not started my MM2 attempt yet, but none of the jumps in 1 were as difficult as some of the ones I encountered on the BBC Micro when I was a kid.

shadowman> Yeah, the boss rush in Wily Stage 4 was a nightmare. I eventually got the hang of the trick with Fireman that's demonstrated in the vid of his stage that I linked to - stand by the wall, wait until he fires his first shot, then a split second later press fire and jump at the exact same time. It forces him into a circular pattern, so beating him just becomes a matter of timing your jumps/shots. You still need to be wary, though, because doing anything different will push him out of his pattern and see him fucking you over again. I still have trouble stopping myself from jumping forwards over his shots, for some reason

Gutsman seems to be sheer luck whether or not you'll avoid getting hit. I've got a theory that it's possible to avoid any damage by allowing his jump quake to stun you, then jumping to the left as soon as you regain control - I did this in one run by accident and came out of the battle unscathed, although it could have been sheer luck.

Pulseman tends to be a pricey game purely because of the developer. It's Game Freak, the same team behind Pokemon. Funny it should be brought up in this thread, because I was reading up on it a few weeks ago, for entirely different reasons.

#32 bowser123

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 07:30 PM

Sorry Randy, typo or something. When I wrote TV I meant four controllers, hence the bit about being an octopus. ie he'll need 8 hands to hold 4 pads. Seriously though... how is he holding 4 pads? Only way I can see it is it's two pads to one hand, but I've just sat here like a simpleton trying to stretch my fingers. I guess you could use your thumb to jump and the finger next to it for directions. Miss out the middle finger, using the other two for the second pad. But I just can't stretch my other two fingers far enought o actually reach the buttons, never mind have the dexterity to actually push the things.

I seriously don't get it, and fear I'm being incredibly stupid actually.

-------
Manic Miner? Nope, never tried it. I guess when I say I've done many platformers I mean pretty much Nintendo developed ones, or stuff like DKC and Plok from the SNES era.

Was never a fan of any Sonic, even the first.
Heresy, I know, given the forum and all.

Edited by bowser123, 03 June 2010 - 07:33 PM.


#33 E. Randy Dupre

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 07:55 PM

It's the tool-assisted bit that's important, bowser. Basically, any time you see a speed run or a playthrough with that heading, it means that the game wasn't being played in the manner it was designed to be. Don't think of it like he's playing them in the regular fashion, because he isn't. The games will be running on a PC via emulation, which allows you to 'cheat' in virtually any way you see fit. Like I say, it's most likely that he's got the games pausing themselves after every single frame (or, more charitably, every single input) - what we're seeing as 45 minutes in the vid could well have actually taken hours, potentially even days to set up.

In fact, it might not even be a human playing the games, or significant portions of them.

Have a read of this. The whole TAS thing is weird. It's ridiculously anal and you could argue that it completely misses the point - and the fun - of videogames. But it's also quite entertaining in its own right, and you've got to give kudos to the people (the strange, disturbed people) who spend their time figuring this stuff out and the putting it into practice.

On platform game difficulty: yeah, the 16bit consoles really knocked difficulty down by a large degree. Sonic is probably the prime example - there's very little requirement for accuracy at all in any of the games in that series. Playing Mega Man 1 really has taken me back to my youth, to an extent, even though I never played it when I was younger. It reminds me of when platformers offered a particular type of challenge, and that challenge is one that I always enjoyed, even when it was impossible for me to overcome.

#34 qazimod

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Posted 03 June 2010 - 08:12 PM

I assumed it was mapping one set of inputs across four games - ie: you press jump with one button, and each Mega Man in the four games will jump simultaneously. Not sure how it's done on that particular hack, but I've found other emulators allow for similar stuff - I think I've ran multiple instances of ElSemi's CPS-3 emulator and tried playing all of the Street Fighter III series at once... UNGGGHARGH.gif

In other news, I've rather foolishly bought and downloaded Mega Man 9 this evening...

#35 shadowman

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 08:35 AM

QUOTE(bowser123 @ Jun 3 2010, 07:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Inspired by this thread I've gone back and tried some Mega Mans on the NES, and bought two Cube games. I got Network Transmission and Command Mission as they tie in with wanting to play some RPG's. Either will probably be the console game I play next. Any idea as to which might be better to start, or get into?


Network Transmission plays a lot like the older NES games rather than an RPG so Command Mission would be your best bet if your looking for an RPG to play through. NT is also punishingly hard from the get go with the first couple of bosses being able to destroy you in a couple of hits! Once you manage to acquire various good battle chips and powerups for Megaman the tables turn and the game becomes much easier. The hidden boss (Bass) is still a nightmare to beat at the best of times though.

QUOTE(E. Randy Dupre @ Jun 3 2010, 08:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
shadowman> Yeah, the boss rush in Wily Stage 4 was a nightmare. I eventually got the hang of the trick with Fireman that's demonstrated in the vid of his stage that I linked to - stand by the wall, wait until he fires his first shot, then a split second later press fire and jump at the exact same time. It forces him into a circular pattern, so beating him just becomes a matter of timing your jumps/shots. You still need to be wary, though, because doing anything different will push him out of his pattern and see him fucking you over again. I still have trouble stopping myself from jumping forwards over his shots, for some reason

Gutsman seems to be sheer luck whether or not you'll avoid getting hit. I've got a theory that it's possible to avoid any damage by allowing his jump quake to stun you, then jumping to the left as soon as you regain control - I did this in one run by accident and came out of the battle unscathed, although it could have been sheer luck.


Thanks for the vid links. I never realised you could get Fireman to do that! I'll have to give it a go tonight.
Gutsman's battle does seem to be sheer luck usually for me. I know depending on where you are in the air when his concrete block splits into pieces determines the angle at which the pieces fly at you (if that makes sense). I think its down to timing the jump just right so that you sail over the block's pieces rather than get hit by them when they split. Its really hard to do consistantly plus when he is right next to you, you risk getting trampled on as well.

Also with the arrival of my Saturn copy of Megaman X4 my collection stands at 75% complete. I've got quite a few other Megaman games on their way to me sp hopefully that number should rise even further. I'm hoping to have my collection at around 90% complete by Christmas. Luckily I'm mainly left with the easy stuff to track down (recent GBA, PS2 stuff) but there is the odd game that is proving amazingly difficult to track down (The Sega Saturn Collection/Satakore release of Rockman 8 )

Edited by shadowman, 04 June 2010 - 08:44 AM.


#36 bowser123

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 12:55 PM

I started to play Cube Network Transmission last night, before I'd read your post Shadowman. I was quite enjoying it whilst being ever so slightly confused and baffled by the game. Then I reached the second boss and frustration has set right in.

I simply can't beat Cutsman, though on my second go I got him down to about 10% health so he is killable. Problem is in the following 10 or so attempts I didn't get anywhere near as close. There's two things that are causing frustration, hopefully one of which somebody can help with.

The main bugbear is with the chips. You can nominate one as a favourite so it always appears. Good. The thing is the other 19 are chosen at random, and rarely am I happy with the selection. I tried to cheat the game by taking 15 out of the folder and put them in reserve, but the game says nope, I must have 20. With Cutsman I'm trying to stay at arms length, shooting him from afar. I have several heavy hitting such weapons, but the game never gives me more than one per selection. Really annoyingly I'll get no health top up chips, then 3 in one bag. GRR. There must be a trick to having a greater choice in what chips show up.

The second concern is purely a gameplay thing. Dieing on a boss puts you outside his room until all your lives are gone. Game over and you have to repeat the section to reach the boss. I know it's a staple part of MM to do this, but seriously, put a save outside the boss room.


The thing with the game being confusing was mainly down to a lack of research on my part, and a very poor introduction on the games. I was all "err, why the fuck is Mega Man some kind of Pokemon, being controlled by a trainer in his watch that connects to a corrupted internet". Having read up on the back story on the internet it's now making some sense but it was terribly confusing at first. I was also initially bewildered at just how weak his beam is, needing like 6 shots to kill even the first enemy you see. I've since collected powerups which have let me charge the thing and it's a bit better, but his beam is so laughably substandard it's untrue.

I still don't really get what the little battle chip pick up's do. I mean the little green ones the enemy sometimes drop when defeated. Don't mean the health or magic ones, or money BTW. I figured they refil the ammo of the selected chip as I've seen my cannon chip be topped up by collecting them. However, I've also regularly had chip selected that's not at maximum capacity which haven't been replenished. Annoyingly this has happened to the cannon chip too, which I've definitely seen increase in number before.

So, yeah, it's weird and frustrating the hell out of me now. I was quite enjoying it though even if I was ever so slightly confused as to what the hell was going on.

#37 shadowman

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 02:08 PM

I'm afraid there's little you can do at the minute about the battle chip load outs. I was playing Megaman Starforce last weekend which uses a similar system and its completely random which ones pop up. The best you can do is collect as many good chips as you can and put them in your folder and hope (though I think it limits you to 3 of any 1 chip)

If the battle chip pick ups are the ones I think they are then these are chips that you can put in your folder. Mets drop their ground wave attacks, cannon's drop Cannon chips (quite handy) and so forth. Later in the game enemies will drop better/more powerful chips some of which are extremely useful - the "Invisible" chip makes you invincible for a short period of time and is invaluable in some situations.

And yes, MM is a real wimp at the beginning of the game. I forget exactly how the power up chips work but its a good idea to level up his buster damage first if possible. Charge attacks are handy but I found this method was more effective in the beginning part of the game.

Other than that its just down to trying to learn Gutsmans attack pattern and try not to get trapped in the corner as he will destroy you given the chance.

#38 bowser123

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 05:41 PM

You were spot on Shadowman in regards to what the grey chips with green in the middle of them, dropped by enemies, were. Like you said a cannon drops a cannon, the bunny a paralysis shot. Confirmed this by checking the pause menu, in there there's an option to see the last few items you picked up and it gives a description as to what each does. What threw me where the chip graphics were the same so I thought that whatever chip was equipped, that was topped up. The fact the enemies regenerate quickly has allowed to me quickly identify what drops what to an extent, and then harvest the more useful ones. Just got double jump off the penguins for example, will need loads of them.

Also... CUTSMAN IS DEAD! Or was it Gutsman? Ha ha, either way I defeated it and on my first go today. Guess I just needed the break from him. Found out by accident that if you don't equip any chips at the start, that when the bar refils and you press Z that 10 appear in the selextion screen than the normal 5. Whilst this isn't perfect as you still miss 50% of what you own, the better odds allowed me to have a few beams and healing items. Got desperate near the end as my beams had ran out, all I had was a sword. As it turns out the sword cancels the animation on a few of hiss attacks, meaning he doesn't launch them.

Huzzah!

#39 E. Randy Dupre

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 05:51 PM

Latest additions to my family:



Mega Man Battle & Chase and Rockman 2 Complete Works were both freebies from shadowman! Cheers chief!

#40 shadowman

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 08:21 PM

QUOTE(bowser123 @ Jun 4 2010, 06:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Also... CUTSMAN IS DEAD! Or was it Gutsman? Ha ha, either way I defeated it and on my first go today. Guess I just needed the break from him. Found out by accident that if you don't equip any chips at the start, that when the bar refils and you press Z that 10 appear in the selextion screen than the normal 5. Whilst this isn't perfect as you still miss 50% of what you own, the better odds allowed me to have a few beams and healing items. Got desperate near the end as my beams had ran out, all I had was a sword. As it turns out the sword cancels the animation on a few of hiss attacks, meaning he doesn't launch them.

Huzzah!


Nice work! Things should slowly start to get easier now for you, the first 2 bosses are always the toughest. When you go up against Needle Man keep in mind when he does his screen filling needle attack you can dodge it by standing directly under him. My favourite part of the game is the simulator that lets you refight past bosses again. With the right chips its possible to acquire the bosses as summoned monster style attacks which deal out lots of damage.

QUOTE(E. Randy Dupre @ Jun 4 2010, 06:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Latest additions to my family:



Mega Man Battle & Chase and Rockman 2 Complete Works were both freebies from shadowman! Cheers chief!


Glad to see both reached you safely smile.gif

#41 E. Randy Dupre

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 08:59 PM

Made a start on Mega Man 2 this afternoon. Had a quick play on all the levels beffore coming to the conclusion that, if anything, it's more frustrating than the first game. Is this *really* the one that most people consider to be the pinnacle of the series?

To begin with, I'd decided that Woodman's stage was probably the best one to tackle first. I know those huge dogs take a load of hits, but I'd got the hang of avoiding their fire breath after a few attempts. Got to Woodman and... can't defeat him. I can't avoid the falling leaves when I'm on the left-hand side of the screen - can't figure out where to stand in order for them to fall either side of me without touching me.

So I abandoned that idea and went on to Heatman instead.



What a fucking cheek this stage is. Disappearing blocks, fine. I like them. Disappearing blocks over a bottomless, insta-death pit? That's not cricket. However, I managed to get to the boss third time of asking - it's the section over the bottomless drop that's the trickiest, thanks to that one moment when a block that you're meant to jump to appears directly above the one you're on, but does so after the one you're on has already vanished, meaning you have to know in advance that it's going to happen. This is, as I say, fine if you fall to the floor and just have to run back to the start of teh section to try again, but here it means death. And it also means guaranteed death the very first time you come across it.

I fluked it third time of trying. I knew roughly whereabouts it was that I had to jump directly up, but not precisely, so I took a guess and got lucky.

Heatman is pretty easy to defeat. Didn't manage to break him from his attack animation routine the same way as is shown in that vid, but it doesn't matter. As long as you remember not to stand right at the edges of the arena, you leave yourself lots of room to run out of the way of his shots (a bit like the trick to Wily's second form in the first game, only in reverse).

No idea who I'm going to take on now. Common sense suggests that Woodman should be weak to the Atomic Fire weapon, but I've already tested this theory and he isn't.

#42 E. Randy Dupre

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 09:01 PM

Actually, something I've been meaning to ask. I know that Mega Man is the 'correct', official way of typing the name, but what about the robot masters? I've been running the names together up until now - eg. Heatman - because that's how they appear on the level start screens, but most places I've looked online separate them - eg. Heat Man. Any ideas which is right?

#43 E. Randy Dupre

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 09:34 PM

Tell a lie. It does work, it's just that you need to charge it up. I didn't even realise you could do that until I rad a comment in the page for the Heat Mman vid!

Yeah, I'm going with separate names now.

This stage is a bit of a pain after the dogs. They're just time-consuming, but the bit afterwards, with just th regular gun, is a real pisser.



Those apes don't jump at you until you're already on top of them, or alternatively after a bit of waiting around. Unfortunately, where the third of them is concerned, if you wait around you inevitably get smacked around by the birds that escape from those dropped eggs.

The comments to that vid mention something about Wood Man nly taking one charged Atomic Fire shot to defeat in the western version of the game, but two in the Japanese version (or in 'difficult' mode in the western one). On the PS2 compilation it takes two, which either means that the game is set to 'difficult' by default or that the conversion/emulation team used the Japanese version here. Which is an odd move, but welcome - I'd have been pissed off, I think, if I suddenly discovered that I'd been playing these games watered down.

Incidentally, I'm not watching most of these vids myself until I've completed the relevant level, because otherwise I'd make things too easy for myself. The exception being Wily Stage 4 in the previous game, mainly because of Fire Man.

#44 qazimod

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 10:31 PM

Jesus, you're brave to take on Heat Man first - that level drove me nuts with the disappearing blocks. Pure old-fashioned trial and error shit right there (unless you're incredibly good at predicting where the blocks will appear, which isn't as unlikely as you think.) It's certainly one of my...*thinks*...three least favourite robot master levels in the game. tongue.gif

As for the robot master names, I don't know the official way to type them, but obviously the series itself is just as guilty of adding and omitting spaces in the names... wink.gif

EDIT: a note about the eggs in Wood Man's stage; they're a great exploit for pickups if you're using the right weapon; wait for them to explode into a cluster of enemies, take them all out with one shot and pick up a whole load of energy/ammo. biggrin.gif

Edited by qazimod, 05 June 2010 - 10:34 PM.


#45 shadowman

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Posted 05 June 2010 - 10:45 PM

I've never come to a conclusion on how to right the Robot Master names, I tend to flitter between either both ways of writing them. Ditto with Megaman himself since looking at some game titles he's listed as "Mega Man" and others its simply "Megaman"!

Heatman's disapearing blocks are the most evil in the entire series (bar maybe Astro Man's in R&F). I've done it so many times I now have them mapped out in my head but for the longest time I simply used the "Item 2" weapon to avoid that entire part of the level.
Regarding Woodman, he's a pain in the ass with his leaves but the way I avoided them was to jump up through the gap just at the right time to avoid them completely. It takes a bit of practice but its worked for me throughout the series whenever Woodman has popped up. I prefer to use the Metal Blade when fighting him, much better than the Atomic Fire as it doesn't need to be charged and it still deals out good damage against him. Its worth pointing out that the Metal Blade is probably the best weapon in the MM series in my opinion, you can shoot it in many directions, it deals out excellent damage, it has a great rate of fire and you get a hell of shots in before the weapon bar depletes completely.

Also only the original Euro and American NES release got the difficulty select for Megaman 2 - you deal out more damage, take less damage etc. This was taken away for all the subsequent re-releases and compilations (bar the Complete Works games which get 3 difficulty levels)




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